Area Dmg Vs Projectile Dmg
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Physical damage is one of the five damage types. It is the most common and the only one reduced by armour, rather than by a resistance. Most physical damage comes from weapon attacks, but some spells deal physical damage as well. Every 10 points of strength give a. Projectile Speed: 3260 Requires Level 28 Fires an arrow which will stick into an enemy or wall, and then explode after a duration, dealing area damage around it. If an enemy has multiple Explosive Arrows stuck in them, the first one to explode will consume the others, adding their damage to its explosion. If you have a high phys bow, but also go heavy on ele dmg sources (anger + wrath supported by%WED on gear maybe?), then some min-maxing may be in order, since the effectiveness of pure phys and projectile dmg nodes would bearound the same per point (average bow phys node adds 12% usually with some sweet bow phys dmg notables that add even more. Weapon range increases the area of this attack. Requires a Melee Weapon. Per 1% Quality: 0.5% chance to Trigger this. Artillery Ballista Artillery Ballista Attack, Totem, AoE. Supported Skills deal 0.5% increased Projectile Damage Supported Skills' Projectile Attack Hits deal up to 30% more Damage to targets at the start of. Do these passives affect elemental damage as well? Say a bow with 10 phys and 10 lighting will end up at 11 in both with +10% projectile damage? I know these passives affect spells as well, but would it increase an aura's damage bonus as well? What about +dmg from gear?
I have seen a few places and different threads where people talk about the different types of damage being split into different 'tags' and then bonuses being applied .. but I haven't seen it spelled out exactly where that happens in the chain. And as it turns out, that matters a good bit because it may mean we can't just look at pure % numbers and assume that 'projectile' is better. For Caustic Arrow, physical damage causes additional chaos damage. Physical damage will therefore boost both physical and chaos damage, but not the caustic cloud. Projectile damage boosts ALL damage, cloud included (for now), so the usual line of thinking is that projectile damage is better than physical damage. Yet still in some places I see people saying that, Lightning Arrow builds, for instance, do better with physical damage. LA is different from CA but there's a similar principle at work and I'm trying to get down to the bottom of it. I'll lay out a circumstance so that you can know just what I'm asking: Let's ignore the chaos cloud for now, and just look at initial hit damage. Let's say we have base damage of 500 (just to keep this simple) for CA. Let's also say that we have enough passive nodes to add up to 100% additional projectile damage. This means our damage will now be 1000. Okay .. so now we're looking to add more nodes. We can get 30% projectile damage or 30% physical damage. Well, here's where it depends on exactly how the calculations are made. If one or the other applies before conversion rather than at the very end of the chain, we could end up with very different amounts. Since we already have 100% projectile damage, getting another 30% would make a total of +130% projectile damage. We won't actually see 30% more damage, but 15%, because the 30 is adding onto an already-existent 100. We'd then have base damage 500 * 2.3 to get 1150. Now, let's assume we got the physical damage nodes instead. Because the chaos damage scales directly off physical, we can apply the 30% physical damage nodes as a true 30% damage modifier, right? So if it works like this: 500 * 1.3 (physical damage nodes) * 2 (previously-held projectile damage nodes) then we see a very different result: 1300 damage in this case. The point is, if physical and projectile are calculated separately by the game mechanics, it is beneficial to get some of BOTH and not just one or the other. But nobody has, to my knowledge, been specific about this point. The best I've seen is a Reddit post that attempted to look at multiple types of damage at once. But I'm still left with this unresolved point. We have some 10% projectile nodes or 15% phys nodes. Knowing just how they're applied can make for a much more informed decision. Can someone with some deeper knowledge of the applicable formulas tell me if I'm right or dead wrong? Thanks! I'm sure many others are wondering similar things, because with all these threads on these damage types, there seems to be an absence of actually hitting the nail on this head, and a lot of supposition about why projectile damage nodes are better but supposedly more difficult to get. I've tried online damage calculators, but they're all insufficient for this task. Hopefully someone knows how this works. Thanks again, -VG- Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08 Last edited by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 12:14:49 AM | Posted by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 12:12:20 AM |
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Stat#Order_of_application Base damage = 500. Split damage right off the bat (this is just like calculating herald of ash or Hatred btw). 500 phys dmg 500 x 0,3 chaos dmg = 150 chaos dmg 130% projectile damage: 500 x 2,3 + 150 x 2,3 = 1150 phys damage, 345 chaos dmg 100 projectile damage and 30% phys damage: 500 x 2 x 1,3 + 150 x 2 x 1,3 = 1300 phys damage + 390 chaos. Edit: was tired when I wrote this. This is not correct. Last edited by Frankenberry on Feb 17, 2016, 12:19:22 PM | Posted by Frankenberry on Feb 17, 2016, 5:00:09 AM |
Oh dear baby Jesus, I've been schooled so much by Raics and Vipermagi, that I should know this. Heaven help me if I still get it wrong after all these years lol. I think you are describing the difference between increased damage and more damage. In your example, physical damage and projectile damage will be added together because they are both increased damage. 100% increased projectile damage and 30% increased physical damage 500 * 2.3 The reason you would not add the different damage modifiers together, would be because one does not affect the skill. For instance, Molten Strike. There is a melee physical attack and a projectile physical attack all rolled into one skill. Physical damage will affect both. Melee physical will affect the melee, projectile physical will affect the projectile. | Posted by Opinionated on Feb 17, 2016, 6:46:08 AM |
' Wow. Thanks! This actually proves (EDIT: if this is the correct interpretation) the point that we *DO* need to get some of both in order to maximize DPS! I think I'll bookmark this thread so that I can refer to it whenever someone else says to just pick one and ignore the others. Granted, projectile should still be the priority due to its affecting the caustic cloud and elemental damage, but clearly ignoring physical nodes altogether isn't the best bet. -VG- Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08 Last edited by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 7:09:48 AM | Posted by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 6:46:59 AM |
' Yes, more damage will multiply after increased damage. These are all increased damage nodes. But as far as the calculations in this case, would you agree with Frankenberry's interpretation of the wiki? Or would you argue and say that it would actually be more like this? 500 phys + 150 chaos 130 projectile damage (500 * 2.3) + (150 * 2.3) = 1150 + 345 chaos 100 projectile and 30 phys damage (500 * 2.3) + (150 * 2) = 1150 + 300 chaos Obviously this is a different result from what was just posted. The only difference in calculation is that the 30 phys damage either applies to the resultant phys-->chaos damage conversion or it does not. Do you know which is correct? -VG- Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08 Last edited by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 7:05:33 AM | Posted by VideoGeemer on Feb 17, 2016, 6:54:29 AM |
<3 Free Tibet <3 Last edited by Opinionated on Feb 17, 2016, 7:37:26 PM | Posted by Opinionated on Feb 17, 2016, 7:12:25 AM |
Have a look at this page though. http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion Last edited by Opinionated on Feb 17, 2016, 7:36:37 PM | Posted by Opinionated on Feb 17, 2016, 7:22:28 AM |
' Watch http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Stat#Order_of_application at the very buttom. Method B. Anyways. I am more awake now compared to when I wrote the gibberish a few posts above. flat dmg x increased multiplier x more dmg multiplier. 500 physical x (100% (base) + 100% (projectile) + 30% (physical)) = 1150 phys dmg 150 chaos x (100% (base) + 100% (projectile) + 30% (physical)) = 345 chaos dmg Remember chaos damage in this instance also stacks of physical damage. Result above is of course the same with 130% projectile damage since you just add them together for a total of 130%. You can double dip with shadow phys / chaos nodes. Let's say you have 100% physical damage, 50% projectile and 50% chaos dmg. in that case you would have 500 physical x (100% (base) + 100% (physical) + 50% (projectile)) = 1250 phys dmg 150 chaos x (100% (base) + 100% (physical) + 50% (projectile) + 50% (chaos)) = 450 chaos dmg So basically add together all flat the correct flat damage. Multiply with all relevant increased modifiers added together. Multiply with relevant more damage multiplier. Last edited by Frankenberry on Feb 17, 2016, 12:28:58 PM | Posted by Frankenberry on Feb 17, 2016, 11:31:15 AM |
I was asked to comment here, but while I was sleeping Frankenberry got it down just right. :) Caustic Arrow's Chaos damage is based on Physical Damage, and thus also scales with Physical Damage multipliers. Because they're both Increased-type in this case, they stack additively. For the purposes of CA's initial Hit, there's no difference between 10% Inc Phys and 10% Inc Proj damage. People tend to ignore Physical Damage multipliers for Caustic Arrow because the initial Hit doesn't matter a lot - it's largely about the cloud's damage, and it does not scale with Physical Damage. ' These sorts of comments usually refer to Physical versus Elemental Damage increases, rather than Physical versus Projectile. Phys and Proj are equal for a Physical damage Bow; Elemental Damage is only equal if you Convert 100% Physical to Elemental. Physical Damage bonuses are usually a little stronger than Elemental, too. That helps. :P | Posted by on Feb 17, 2016, 1:50:20 PM |
Sorry it's taken me a while to have time to make a proper reply. So it seems that the formula is simultaneously more simple and more complicated than I had imagined. I'd like to sincerely thank everyone who has replied in this thread, and to Raics as well. Compiling information and posting here for the future, and to make sure I've got it all right. :) ---- So for Caustic Arrow, we'd see the exact same boost on the arrow hit with 130% projectile damage as we would 100% projectile and 30% physical, but the 30% physical won't boost the cloud and is thus inferior. Our passive nodes typically have 10% projectile or 15% physical. 3 nodes means 30% added projectile or 45% phys. The 30% projectile is still probably better than 45% physical at low CA gem levels, and at high levels it's better no matter what. 500 physical damage with 40% added as chaos damage 130% projectile Physical: 500 * 2.3 = 1150 Chaos: 200 * 2.3 = 460 1610 but will boost cloud and incidental elemental damage by additional 30% 100% projectile, 45% phys Physical: 500 * 2.45 = 1225 Chaos: 200 * 2.00 = 400 1625 but will NOT boost cloud or incidental elemental damage that extra 30% With CA leveled up so that we get 50% added chaos damage rather than 40%, either way we go will give us 1725 damage, but again, projectile damage boosts the cloud and incidentals, whereas physical does not. The only thing I haven't touched on yet are those '10% physical, 10% chaos' nodes at the Shadow start. This seems the same as 10% projectile damage, except we also don't get the incidental elemental boost that projectile offers. So maybe it's not worth going up to that part of the tree unless I end up there eventually anyway. ---- For Lightning Arrow, this 'projectile damage = better' phenomenon does not hold true. I can see those 15% physical nodes scaling a lot better for that skill because we don't have the 30-50% additional value, or a DoT cloud. We just have lightning, which comes entirely from a physical source. What surprised me was hearing that bonii STACK THROUGH damage conversion types. If you have physical damage converted to lightning and then to cold, you get all applicable physical, lightning, and cold additional damage values. This means, if I understand correctly, that any physical AND projectile damage modifiers will apply to Lightning Arrow's pure physical and lightning FROM physical components. 500 physical, 50% converted to lightning 130% projectile Physical: 250 * 2.3 = 575 Lightning FROM physical: 250 * 2.3 = 575 1150 100% projectile, 45% phys Physical: 250 * 2.45 = 612.5 Lightning FROM physical: 250 * 2.45 = 612.5 1225, so better for LA! Is that all? I think so. Raics showed me how to structure much more complicated damage calculations, but what I've posted here should be enough to apply to these passive nodes, for these skills, at least. Thanks again, everyone! -VG- Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08 Last edited by VideoGeemer on Feb 21, 2016, 9:50:55 PM | Posted by VideoGeemer on Feb 21, 2016, 9:44:06 PM |