I've tried the search function, but I cannot find a good discussion based around a direct discussion between the 2 main classes of passives.
What would you guys take, a mixture or one over the other? Personally, I'm not sure whether to take the chance with crit or just go straight to increasing my base DPS.

Posted by
D4veY
on Mar 11, 2013, 8:30:18 PM

A mixture would work better than maximizing one or the other.
If your unmodified attack would deal 1000 damage, an unmodified crit would deal 1500 damage.
If you modify the attack by 100%, it becomes 2000 damage, and the crit would deal 3000 damage.
If you modify the crit multiplier by one bonus of 100%, normal attack is 1000 and the crit would deal 3000 damage.
If you modify the attack by 50%, it becomes 1500 damage, and you also modify the crit multiplier by 50%, the crit of that attack would deal 3375 damage.
Now you also have to take into account that crit multiplier bonuses are multiplicative, which means you should focus crit multiplier more than base damage, but still keep a mixture - if there is a low base, the crit multiplier has nothing to multiply!

'

The multiplier value is modified by talents multiplicatively, for instance if you have +40% and +20% modifiers, the resulting crit multiplier will be 150*(1+0.4+0.2)=240%, meaning that critical strikes deal 240% damage of normal hits.

Critical Strike info!
I tried to simplify this post as much as possible for the sake of easier presentation.

Life is tough.. but it is tougher if you're stupid.

Posted by
VenatorPoE
on Mar 11, 2013, 8:42:16 PM

'

A mixture would work better than maximizing one or the other.
If your unmodified attack would deal 1000 damage, an unmodified crit would deal 1500 damage.
If you modify the attack by 100%, it becomes 2000 damage, and the crit would deal 3000 damage.
If you modify the crit multiplier by one bonus of 100%, normal attack is 1000 and the crit would deal 3000 damage.
If you modify the attack by 50%, it becomes 1500 damage, and you also modify the crit multiplier by 50%, the crit of that attack would deal 3375 damage.
Now you also have to take into account that crit multiplier bonuses are multiplicative, which means you should focus crit multiplier more than base damage, but still keep a mixture - if there is a low base, the crit multiplier has nothing to multiply!

'

The multiplier value is modified by talents multiplicatively, for instance if you have +40% and +20% modifiers, the resulting crit multiplier will be 150*(1+0.4+0.2)=240%, meaning that critical strikes deal 240% damage of normal hits.

Critical Strike info!
I tried to simplify this post as much as possible for the sake of easier presentation.

Good post. What would you say however on critical strike chance? What is a percent chance value to shoot for? Since the multiplier is nothing without a critical hit first.

Last edited by D4veY on Mar 11, 2013, 8:49:37 PM

Posted by
D4veY
on Mar 11, 2013, 8:49:09 PM

Well, you have to decide between being a glass cannon or still having a solid amount of bulk, and you also want to fix the problem of damage reflect (Vaal Pact becomes mandatory at really high DPS values). Either way, getting up to 40%ish crit chance is going to be quite a challenge (unless we are talking Ice Spear or Power Siphon because of the specific mechanics).

Life is tough.. but it is tougher if you're stupid.

Posted by
VenatorPoE
on Mar 11, 2013, 8:54:55 PM

'

Well, you have to decide between being a glass cannon or still having a solid amount of bulk, and you also want to fix the problem of damage reflect (Vaal Pact becomes mandatory at really high DPS values). Either way, getting up to 40%ish crit chance is going to be quite a challenge (unless we are talking Ice Spear or Power Siphon because of the specific mechanics).

Indeed, raising critical strike chance is quite a challenge compared to D3.

Posted by
D4veY
on Mar 11, 2013, 8:59:26 PM

'

'

Well, you have to decide between being a glass cannon or still having a solid amount of bulk, and you also want to fix the problem of damage reflect (Vaal Pact becomes mandatory at really high DPS values). Either way, getting up to 40%ish crit chance is going to be quite a challenge (unless we are talking Ice Spear or Power Siphon because of the specific mechanics).

Indeed, raising critical strike chance is quite a challenge compared to D3.

High crit chance and physical? Granite Flasks
High crit chance and elemental? Capped resists
It's like this is rocket science or something. You can get fairly decent crit while having good defenses. Where did this 'go full retard or full tank' idea come into play?

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Thanks GGG.

Posted by
on Mar 11, 2013, 9:10:12 PM

'

If you modify the crit multiplier by one bonus of 100%, normal attack is 1000 and the crit would deal 3000 damage.

I think this was wrong..
Here is how I understand it. Please someone verify which way is correct
1000 damage hit means 1500 crit (standard character has 150% crit.
if you add 100% crit modifier you would have a total of 250%
1000 hit becomes 2500 [1000*250%], not the 3000 that was mentioned earlier.
Which is right?

Posted by
on Mar 11, 2013, 9:55:11 PM

Also take into account your weapons. Most weapons start at a base 5% chance to crit.
Daggers, on the other hand, can add a lot - just dual wielding criss's with no other bonuses pushes it to 9%.

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Posted by
WippitGuud
on Mar 11, 2013, 10:00:39 PM

In my opinion pure dmg is much better (dmg or weapon elemental dmg) than crit if you think about pure damage.
Some calc example with hipotetical dmg values. Long term dmg.
we use bow 5% crit chance
our base dmg
100 dmg per attack as base
100 attacks. Base crit 5%. 95 normal attacks, 5 critical attacks with 150% dmg
total damage: 9500 + 750 = 10250 dmg
we increase our crit to 10% as bow shadow for example. You can spend 5 points for +100% crit chance and +20% crit mulitplayer.
Bow 5% CRIT CHANCE. +100% = 10% crit chance with 170% dmg.
100 attacks = 90 normal + 10 crit
total damage = 9000 + (10 * 170) = 10700 dmg
so, 5 passive points gave us 500 dmg.
If we spent that 5 passive points into any dmg nods, like +4% dmg per node, we got more overall damage. 5 * 4% = 20% and 20% * 10 k = 2000. much more dmg
If you want go straight dmg you should take only dmg or elemental dmg nodes.

Posted by
Masharab
on Mar 11, 2013, 10:23:48 PM

crit builds are viable but the amount of nodes required is quite high.
things to consider:
1) 800% crit multiplier wont worth a dime if they dont come when one needs them, that is why i find chance to crit a more important thing to invest into.
2)due low base chance to crit on spells and equipment, one need to spend quite a lot of nodes into crit enhacers turning the char into a glass cannon wich is not a realy good idea in the current state of the game (blinkers, fast movers, desink magic and the tipical surprise you are dead moments when changing maps, entering a portal or what not.)
3)early on crit builds are quite weak since they have very low chance to crit.

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Posted by
caboom
on Mar 11, 2013, 10:26:00 PM

Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between these? And if yes, how do they work?
Also, is it worth getting these passives? Or is it better to spend the points on something else?
Thanks in advance.

Posted by
jpichie
on Oct 8, 2012, 4:56:00 AM

'

Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between these? And if yes, how do they work?
Also, is it worth getting these passives? Or is it better to spend the points on something else?
Thanks in advance.

Global means just that it affects all critical strike chances.
Critical Multiplier is your damage multiplier that affects the damage you do when you crit
Critical chance on weapons just affect the weapons chance to critical hit,
as far as I know the critical chance nodes in the passive tree act globally.
as for if its better to get them it almost entirely depends on the build you are doing.
On my bow ranger I've picked up a ton of crit chance nodes and crit multipliers.. but then again I'm kinda a glass cannon, things should be dead before they get to me (I'm quite squishy)

Last edited by StrmDragon on Oct 8, 2012, 5:11:50 AM

Posted by
StrmDragon
on Oct 8, 2012, 5:10:39 AM

I'll be mentioning some passives that increase critical, you can search for them with the search function at the bottom of the passive skill tree if you need them for reference.
40% increased critical strike chance on 'Bloodthirst' means that it will effect the critical chance of anything you're using. Spells, any weapon and so on.
25% increased critical strike chance with daggers on 'From the Shadows' will only effect daggers. Holding a dagger won't cause From the Shadows to effect your spell critical chance, it specifically applies only to daggers. This also applies to every other critical passive that mentions a specific weapon.
60% increased critical chance for spells from 'Doom Cast' will only effect spells. Any damage spell as far as I know.
Critical multiplier is how much damage your critical will do. If you have for example 300% critical multiplier, chances are pretty high you're going to one shot most things you encounter.
Global critical is relatively new, or at least new wording. You'll only find it on items and not in the passive tree. Global critical means it works like Bloodthirst described above and effects anything you use.
Local critical means it will only effect the item it's on.
My experience and opinion on criticals:
The last critical build I made was a dual wand shadow several patches ago. He had absolutely no trouble clearing areas 8 levels above him in ruthless but I was getting reduced exp from being too far ahead I believe.
It was the most boring build I've ever played. Critical multiplier turns enemies in to a complete joke and I frankly never plan to go critical again until multiplier is changed.

Posted by
on Oct 8, 2012, 5:14:13 AM

Say you have a 5% base crit white maul
you get a +15% chance to crit passive in passive tree
You now have 5*1.15% crit chance with the weapon and skills that use that weapon
Say you get another 15% passive
It's now 5*1.3
Say you turn the item blue and it gets the mod '+10% crit chance'
Since it's a local crit modifier and not a global one, it changes 5 to 5.5%
Thus, if you have 30% to crit from passives, it's now 5.5*1.3
The chance to crit is random but the chance is rolled on every attack made.
Base crit mult is 150%, or a critical does *1.5 your normal damage
If you get +10% increased crit damage, it's now 150% + 15%, because 10% of 150 is 15. If you get 2 10% crit mult passives, it's now 150 + 30 = 180% critical multiplier.

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Posted by
on Oct 8, 2012, 5:14:38 AM

Posted by
on Feb 25, 2013, 2:33:50 AM

This is an old post, but would like an answer as well.
Which is better? Multiplier or Strike Chance referring to the Gems now.

To Die Is Not An Option, To Fight Until DIESync Is The Only Answer. ☺☻☺
Happy Hunting Exiles.

Posted by
on Jun 6, 2014, 8:10:46 AM

'

This is an old post, but would like an answer as well.
Which is better? Multiplier or Strike Chance referring to the Gems now.

depends.
if you are going for a Cast On Crit utilizing build - Chance is the way to go. not only on gems but gear and passives too.
if you are relying on hitting hard with your crits - that's where Multiplier comes in.
since those builds actually have the attack itself hit hard - rather than trigger other attacks that hit hard - I recommend combining it with a Power Charge On Crit gem or this chest here:
works wonders with things like Arc, for example.

Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun

Posted by
johnKeys
on Jun 6, 2014, 8:21:37 AM

'

'

This is an old post, but would like an answer as well.
Which is better? Multiplier or Strike Chance referring to the Gems now.

depends.
if you are going for a Cast On Crit utilizing build - Chance is the way to go. not only on gems but gear and passives too.
if you are relying on hitting hard with your crits - that's where Multiplier comes in.
since those builds actually have the attack itself hit hard - rather than trigger other attacks that hit hard - I recommend combining it with a Power Charge On Crit gem or this chest here:
works wonders with things like Arc, for example.

Thanks, that has made it a lot clearer for me, Multiplier if you hit hard and Crit chance for CoC.
What would you use for a Cast on Stun or CwDT build that uses 'discharge' though?

To Die Is Not An Option, To Fight Until DIESync Is The Only Answer. ☺☻☺
Happy Hunting Exiles.

Posted by
on Jun 6, 2014, 9:49:20 AM

Cast When Damage taken used to be the obvious answer before the 'great nerf of 2014' :)
right now, I think it's your call for the most part.
if you get stunned a lot (for example CI without Unwavering Stance or anti-stun gear) - use Cast On Stun.
if you have a ton of life and can survive the damage required to trigger a leveled CwDT - use that.
you can also level these kind of gems 'selectively' like Neon demonstrated in one of the Builds Of The Week: keeping CwDT and attached gems at low level, for more triggering.

Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun

Posted by
johnKeys
on Jun 6, 2014, 11:10:23 AM