Hi,
Does anyone know how chaos damage nodes affect poison? I am aware that damage over time nodes and nodes like Fatal Toxins that specifically states it increases poison damage by '100%' affects poison.
What I was wondering is if say 20% Chaos damage nodes will increase the poison damage amount.
Also if this is true, then say I am running a fire spell being converted to chaos. If I grab Chaos damage the spell will get scaled according. Since the poison is 10% of the chaos damage, does the Chaos damage node also affect the poison aftewards?
Example:
My Flameblast hit for 1000 chaos damage
My Poison would hit for 100 , 10% of the 1000
The poison is scaled from 20% increased chaos damage so now it does 120?
And with Fatal Toxins 240?
I am just curious, because if this is true the Chaos nodes would make poison and chaos spells kind of double dip right?

Posted by
Paragon1
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:12:22 PM

double dip =D
pure chaos nodes would increase the initial hit which increases the damage of the poison which is then scaled again by the chaos damage.
this is exactly why people are calling poison op right now. because holy shit the double dips is nuts.
its not even really the nodes on the tree that are the issue but rather void manipulation and wither. since they generate rather massive multipliers on the degen.
just keep in mind that poison is going to get shafted next league because of this so dont hold on to you build too much. it will get a major rework

Last edited by Saltychipmunk on Jan 27, 2016, 1:19:08 PM

Posted by
Saltychipmunk
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:17:24 PM

Yes, chaos damage increases apply to poison, and yes, it will 'double dip' (just like fire/elemental damage and ignite). The only thing that's incorrect in your post is that in your final scenario the poison dps would be 220, not 240, as all damage increases stack additively.

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Posted by
viperesque
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:19:09 PM

'

double dip =D
pure chaos nodes would increase the initial hit which increases the damage of the poison which is then scaled again by the chaos damage.
this is exactly why people are calling poison op right now. because holy shit the double dips is nuts.
its not even really the nodes on the tree that are the issue but rather void manipulation and wither. since they generate rather massive multipliers on the degen.
just keep in mind that poison is going to get shafted next league because of this so dont hold on to you build too much. it will get a major rework

Yea ok thats how it seemed like it would work. And yea thats nuts.
Yea I don't play builds usually more then league so that will work out. Thanks for the advice, very much appreciated.

Posted by
Paragon1
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:29:14 PM

Sorry just one more question.
If consuming dark makes all chaos damage poison at 10% and can stack. My question is , wouldn't it still be better to run a Poison gem, as it poisons enemies and increases the poison damage by another 120
% also?

Posted by
Paragon1
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:41:32 PM

Depends on what Supports you have available to replace it with. Void Manipulation is a far stronger multiplier by virtue of applying multiplicatively, to both the initial Hit and the Poison. 120% Increased Damage to only the Poison simply can't match up to that.

Posted by
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:45:36 PM

'

Depends on what Supports you have available to replace it with. Void Manipulation is a far stronger multiplier by virtue of applying multiplicatively, to both the initial Hit and the Poison. 120% Increased Damage to only the Poison simply can't match up to that.

No it wouldnt be void, I think choice is between added Chaos gem and Poison Gem.

Posted by
Paragon1
on Jan 27, 2016, 1:57:37 PM

ACD equates to ~35% more Hit Damage (less if you have additional +Damage). Poison Damage isn't going to change a whole lot, it might drop a tiny bit, but the notably improved initial Hit is probably going to be good. More one-shot potential.

Posted by
on Jan 27, 2016, 2:04:28 PM

'

ACD equates to ~35% more Hit Damage (less if you have additional +Damage). Poison Damage isn't going to change a whole lot, it might drop a tiny bit, but the notably improved initial Hit is probably going to be good. More one-shot potential.

Yea this build im working on is little wierd lol, but I havn't seen any other builds quite like it, although Iv seen some builds using similiar setups, just different skills. its working quite well so far and very fun.

Posted by
Paragon1
on Jan 27, 2016, 3:29:28 PM

Void Manipulation would apply the elemental damage penalty to the converted fire-to-chaos damage. But with sufficient damage increases, that's much smaller than it looks.

Posted by
Zakon3
on Jan 28, 2016, 4:54:32 AM

I have some questions about if and how poison damage is influenced by damage increases. There is very little information out there and even that is contradictory. So I decided to create some examples that are not realistic but should make the machanics clear. If you answer on this thread without being sure you are correct feel free to do so, but please note that in your answer (I think, I believe, I guess etc.). Thank you all for your help!
I have an attack skill with 1000 base chaos damage and no other damage. No critical strike chance, 100% chance to hit, 100% chance to poison, no increases to poison damage. Then I get 200 damage per second from my poison.
(1) Now I have 10% increased attack damage. How much damage per second do I get from my poison?
(2) Instead I have 10% increased chaos damage. How much poison damage per second?
(3) No longer no critical strike chance, instead 100% critical strike chance, 200% critical strike multiplier, no Perfect Agony allocated. (The hit now deals 2000 damage.) How much poison damage per second do I get?

Last edited by VValnuss on Feb 27, 2018, 11:36:32 AM

Posted by
VValnuss
on Feb 27, 2018, 11:33:10 AM

Posted by
VValnuss
on Feb 27, 2018, 11:37:59 AM

Unless there is somehow some hidden mechanics that i don't know about i'm 95% sure i'm right according to my knowledge.
1. 200. Base dmg is not changed 1000*0.2 = 200
2. 220. This is called double dipping, where the modifier applies to the original hit and the ailment caused by the hit, THIS IS NO LONGER IN THE GAME, was removed due to being too op. Poison is calculated from the BASE DAMAGE of the hit now, NOT THE SCALED DAMAGE.
3. 300. Base crit for ailemnt is 150% and cannot be changed except Perfect Agony. 1000*0.2*1.5 = 300

Last edited by 5Six on Feb 27, 2018, 12:23:22 PM

Posted by
on Feb 27, 2018, 12:07:32 PM

'

I have an attack skill with 1000 base chaos damage and no other damage. No critical strike chance, 100% chance to hit, 100% chance to poison, no increases to poison damage. Then I get 200 damage per second from my poison.

Correct.

'

(1) Now I have 10% increased attack damage. How much damage per second do I get from my poison?

Poison is not Attack Damage. It is Damage over Time, which is a fundamentally different Damage Source than Attack Damage. Thus your Poison will still do the same 200 Damage per second.

'

(2) Instead I have 10% increased chaos damage. How much poison damage per second?

Poison is Chaos Damage, so it is affected by this modifier. You deal 200 * 1.1 = 220 Damage per second.

'

(3) No longer no critical strike chance, instead 100% critical strike chance, 200% critical strike multiplier, no Perfect Agony allocated. (The hit now deals 2000 damage.) How much poison damage per second do I get?

I will quote Rory:

'

Rory wrote:

Your Critical Damage Multiplier will now not influence Poison, Bleeding and Ignite damage, as a result of these ailments no longer being based on the final damage of your hit. Instead, players and monsters now have a property called Damage Multiplier for Ailments from Critical Strikes, which boosts the damage of Ignite, Poison and Bleed caused by critical strikes.

Without Perfect Agony, Your Critical Strike Multiplier has no effect on 'Damage Multiplier for Ailments from Critical Strikes' (which might be the worst named stat in all of PoE). The base value of this multiplier is 150%, so Poison inflicted from a Critical Hit will deal 200 * 1.5 = 300 Damage per second.
Further reading:
Ailment, Poison;
Developer Manifesto: Damage over Time changes, Part 2 of the same, FAQ Part 1, Part 2;
Mark_GGG with pictures

We heard you like skill trees, so we put a skill tree in your skill tree.

Last edited by Abdiel_Kavash on Feb 27, 2018, 12:27:59 PM

Posted by
on Feb 27, 2018, 12:22:47 PM

Thank you again! I consider my questions answered.

Posted by
VValnuss
on Feb 27, 2018, 1:59:05 PM

Hello Exiles :D
I also have some questions abaut Poison and don't want to open another Thread. Hope it is Ok.
I'm New to the Game an wanted to start with the new League.
I know so far: +Base Damage from Weapon, Armor and Support Gems are summarized for the Poison Damage calculation.
But some Terms in relation to Buff Poison are kinda Confusing.
But now to the Questions.
--
To use an similar example.
We have 1000 Physical Damage with an Attack Skill.
1)
And just the Passive Bow Note:
'Master Fletcher'
24% increased Phys Dmg with Bows.
10% chance to Poison on hit with Attacks.
24% inreased Damage with Ailments from Attack Skills while wielding a Bow.
I Hit the Enemy for 1240 Physical(1000*1.24) in the Face.
And inflict 248 Poison(1000*0.2*1,24) over 2Seconds?
(Wiki said 20% is PoisonDamage and duration 2seconds)
Is Poison an Ailment from an Attack Skill? Like Bleed from Puncture?
Or just from the hit?
--
2)
Now we will just add:
20% Increased Global Physical Damage.
Does it inflict 240 Poison(1000*0,2*1.2)or still just 200 Poison(1000*0.2)?
At which Point get the Physical Dmg of the Attack converted to ChaosDamage?
--
Thanks for the Help.

Posted by
leptosomatidae
on Feb 28, 2018, 12:23:39 AM

'

We have 1000 Physical Damage with an Attack Skill.
1)
And just the Passive Bow Note:
'Master Fletcher'
24% increased Phys Dmg with Bows.
10% chance to Poison on hit with Attacks.
24% inreased Damage with Ailments from Attack Skills while wielding a Bow.
I Hit the Enemy for 1240 Physical(1000*1.24) in the Face.
And inflict 248 Poison(1000*0.2*1,24) over 2Seconds?

Correct on both accounts. (It is 248 Poison Damage per second over 2 seconds, so 496 Poison Damage total.)

'

Is Poison an Ailment from an Attack Skill? Like Bleed from Puncture?

Poison delivered by an Attack is an Ailment from Attack Skill. But you can also deliver Poison through Spells; in that case it is not.

'

2)
Now we will just add:
20% Increased Global Physical Damage.
Does it inflict 240 Poison(1000*0,2*1.2)or still just 200 Poison(1000*0.2)?

The latter. Poison is Chaos Damage, not Physical. It will not benefit from Physical Damage modifiers.

'

At which Point get the Physical Dmg of the Attack converted to ChaosDamage?

Never. Poison Damage starts as Chaos Damage, it never gets converted to anything. (And fundamentally cannot get converted, as it is Damage over Time.)

We heard you like skill trees, so we put a skill tree in your skill tree.

Last edited by Abdiel_Kavash on Feb 28, 2018, 3:55:24 AM

Posted by
on Feb 28, 2018, 3:50:45 AM

'

'

2)
Now we will just add:
20% Increased Global Physical Damage.
Does it inflict 240 Poison(1000*0,2*1.2)or still just 200 Poison(1000*0.2)?

The latter. Poison is Chaos Damage, not Physical. It will not benefit from Physical Damage modifiers.

'

At which Point get the Physical Dmg of the Attack converted to ChaosDamage?

Never. Poison Damage starts as Chaos Damage, it never gets converted to anything. (And fundamentally cannot get converted, as it is Damage over Time.)

Can you back this up? It is not consistent with my understanding. And I just 'tested' (per character screen) and (global) Physical Damage does increase the 'Poison damage per second' stat - as expected.

No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!

Posted by
Zrevnur
on Feb 28, 2018, 9:18:49 AM

'

A melee physical based attack build using the poison gem will now no longer have their increased melee physical damage bonuses applied to the poison, meaning the poison will be doing significantly less damage. Does this mean that trying to use poison on any build invested in physical damage is not worth the investment?
Technically, those modifiers never applied directly to poison, they only applied to the hit. This then had an effect on the base damage of the poison because that was the final hit damage. Those modifiers will still apply only to the hit, as before, but since the poison is no longer based on the hit's final damage, they won't change the poison's base damage any more.
This means that if you have taken no weapon clusters or supports that benefit the poison damage, the poison damage will indeed be lower. However, in the Beta, many weapon clusters will have large modifiers to Bleeding or Poison damage on them, in addition to their other effects, so you will have some natural increases to Bleeding or Poison Damage by directing yourself to those clusters, while still increasing your physical hit damage.

From https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1897612.

We heard you like skill trees, so we put a skill tree in your skill tree.

Posted by
on Feb 28, 2018, 9:29:08 AM

'

'

A melee physical based attack build using the poison gem will now no longer have their increased melee physical damage bonuses applied to the poison, meaning the poison will be doing significantly less damage. Does this mean that trying to use poison on any build invested in physical damage is not worth the investment?
Technically, those modifiers never applied directly to poison, they only applied to the hit. This then had an effect on the base damage of the poison because that was the final hit damage. Those modifiers will still apply only to the hit, as before, but since the poison is no longer based on the hit's final damage, they won't change the poison's base damage any more.
This means that if you have taken no weapon clusters or supports that benefit the poison damage, the poison damage will indeed be lower. However, in the Beta, many weapon clusters will have large modifiers to Bleeding or Poison damage on them, in addition to their other effects, so you will have some natural increases to Bleeding or Poison Damage by directing yourself to those clusters, while still increasing your physical hit damage.

From https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1897612.

Not sure what you are trying to say with the quote. I dont see how it matters/applies here. The issue here is about 'global/generic physical damage' (which applies to ailments) not 'increased melee physical damage' (which does not apply to ailments). Far as I understand poison does work akin to damage conversion so all the modifiers 'prior' to chaos damage 'conversion' do work.

No wonder it's lost, it's in the middle of the jungle!

Posted by
Zrevnur
on Feb 28, 2018, 10:48:17 AM